[watermillman]

Hi friends,
do you know, how going some championships about discuses, bettas, guppys and killifishes. We had here in Czech republic so first two attempts with Angelfish competition, but with wrong gruesome standards.
If I was build last year new system of breeder´s forms, thereby I took and study in autumn some more international standards of bettas and guppys, talked with some killifishes and discus specialist and was also between judges in last September III. Czech discus championship what were in Prague´s Botanical garden of our University. I was took all my knowledges and made over December some serious competition standards about Angelfishes. After New Year I called some my good friends, which are perfect specialists over another fishes championship and with their help we´re together made it in end of this February.
Czech version you can see here now: http://aquatab.net/clanky/propozice-...erophyllum.htm , where is possible make download of it. Now are in preparing also German´s version and I´m working (if I have for it some time) on English version, what I think will be clear one my friend from Utah to good English. I hope, that to end of this year there could be also this English version.

Jan

[Carol]

looking forward to seeing the english version

[Peter Bottle]

We are looking forward to seeing them Jan - I can't wait.

It would be great to get consensus on international angelfish standards and then drive them world wide...woooohooooooooo

Pete

[Mugwump]

I hear ya Peter, It's be nice if we were all on the same page,huh?....

Jon

[Coleopterist]

Hi Jan,
This is Coleopterist (Jay),
I think your start on a standards document is really neat. I have been someone who has watched the progress of Show Guppies and Show Bettas for the past 36 years. I have seen the changes that have been made in their standards as new varieties have been developed, such as the Double Tail, Halfmoon, Giant, Combtail, and other Bettas. SAme goes for the Show Guppies. As long as the standard is set up to accept changes as worthy new developments come along, it will be a very valuable document.

[watermillman]

Hi Jay,
thank you. Yes, this standard were built for some various needful changes. I was made it so, to will be it in could been complementary at every time and to be with various variability possibilities using. I hope, that I find some time to completion of translating it to English to this autumn (and one my friend will have be more time for gramatic adjustments into serious English).

Jan

[Ken Kennedy]

Hi Peter and Jan, for competitions keep working on the standard look because when different people enter their angels into a competition it is only their looks that will matter. many who will submit an entry might not even know anything about the genetics of their angels and so genotype will not be part of the criteria. It is good that people here are from around the world and hopefully we can someday create a Angelfish Competition Standard that is globally recognized.

[watermillman]

Hi Ken,
if some such competition standards have be for all people, their structure must be intelligible for everybody. This is way for some easy understanding of whole broad issue. I know work of dr. Norton and I know also father Mendel´s principles good (he made it in Brno...). If I made chapter about genetic, was consulted with first genetics from our Veterinairy University in Brno (Doc. Klimeš and dr. Roubal) and some people from VURH (Research Ichtyological Czech institute by Fisherman´s high school in Vodňany town) what I know.
For questions with decoding whole fishe´s mtDNA system aren´t well-known complete answers for all serious scientists to now and with Southamerican angels for more. There aren´t some serious research now, because these fishes haven´t so economic interests - it´s pay for all ornamental fishes, what wheren´t good for some subsistence farming. I was must found too much different ways, than I saw one. It´s so long way, what we must have be in our hands some perfect determine for all really genetic questions with angels. It´s same ways by INPA, Venezuelan University Zulia and also Universities in Jakarta or Raffles Institute of Biological research by Singapore University and other. If scientists haven´t some grants for such research, it´ll be so very long way, than we´ll be know answers for our questions with serious basis.

For better knowledges with some genetic lines by breeder´s forms, what are made in tanks one hundred years we haven´t some good grounds. By too much from them we don´t know, where they were borned and how time. How do you want determine for example some clear "black" population, what have in their other lines some fry as black, white, fourstripes and for our eyes so same another black parents, where they have in their another population lines only black and gold youngs?
For competitions is important, if fish is so more perfect in body building, with good fins and also with good clear colour line after some ideal. Not more, not few. It away some way, in potential possibility with some pedigree or family tree by every one I think. Nobody know, where are genetic lines of his fishes before ten, twenty or fifty years now.

And second case are some breeder´s experiments with different angel´s races, where we know only last results. It isn´t possible can be find their genetic lines.
And third: Too much thousands breeder´s on Earth in profesional or hobby spheres are breeding and spawning their fishes. These people can´t be want know some difficult genetic problems. Their interests are very easy and some several enthusiasts never be know these primal lines and populations.

It whole lead me to make so easy system, what can be comprehensible for everybody human.

Jan

[Ken Kennedy]

Hi Jan, hope you finish your German and English versions so that more people will be able to read them. In addition to color/pattern. The body/fin form must also be considered. Although there will be standards for body and fin shape we should also encourage development of new forms. Good thing about the internet, information from around the world is now more accessible and advancement/improvement in angelfish development will be faster. Before the angelfish was king but now is queen. I think this is a better, more appropriate title because with humans, the queen can wear beautiful gowns/veils and fine jewelry -pearl/diamond. Compared to the King the Queen is more refined, graceful and elegant. Someday, hopefully soon, the Queen shall reign together with the King. The royal family of the freshwater tropical fish world.

Standards for angelfish body and fin forms is very important. A wedding gown is not colorful. It is just basically one color but its flowing form makes the bride most beautiful. Simply Beautiful!

[watermillman]

Yes Ken, I agree and I´m preparing new thread about new forms here in early time. I have so one new form now and way to two other, what no can give to monography, because it is full and definite close now.

But I got some idea. If we here in WAF could be give together something as first world commission team, what´ll be attend and confer about new forms and will be classify them between good stabilized forms.

Jan

[watermillman]

At second. I got translate of "propositions" into German´s language. It´s here now:http://cesky-cichlid-klub.org/SKALAR....php?f=70&t=82

Jan

PS: In preparing is also PDF version for downloading on AQUATAB.

[Peter Bottle]

Hello Jan, thank you for the link to the judging competition standards
I will post its translation by Babelfish this coming weekend.

I have several questions which I will submit to you, to see what flexibility there is to change them.
Some of the conditions may be hard to achieve here, for example, I doubt limiting water Ph conditions supplied by the organizers to less than 7 on the scale will be achievable.
Same for the judges panel, I doubt that it is going to be practical to find 5 judges to select the winning fish at each competition.

I hope we can work towards common ground for judging standards.

I will PM you when I have finished reading it again

Best wishes, Peter

[watermillman]

Hi Peter,

yes, these standards can be make as definite character and may be serve as utility for adjusting of competition. It´s matter of course, that every matchmaker can be more things customize for his possible needs. But what I know about Symphysodon´s competitions, if is possible prepare all for these fishes, for fishes from Pterophyllum genus it´s more simple . These standards were made as base rules for competitions. All details are on matchmakers. It´s commonplace, that matchmaker be good connoisseur of this genus or must have be some good specialist on his side.

With main chemismus of using water what we have here is easy situation , because most of water companies must make here in Europe their products after new European´s hygienic norms. It are conductivity between 200 - 300 microSiemens and pH around neutral - 7. It´s water very fit for such competitions. What norms are in rest of world I don´t know, but think, that´s be similar or better.

More hard things I see with tanks. For every matchmaker is important have be prepare minimaly so around one hundred tanks and over whole year he must have it stored in somewhere place.

In judgement we were came out from experiences with Discuses, Bettas and Livebearers competitions here in middle Europa. Here is general custom, that first and last (upper and down) review are be strike out for serious main review. So for totals we have minimal three good reviews. In these system is possible to can be have his fishes in competition also judges and it´s eliminate some unfair main review. For best results are better have be minimal six or seven judges (or more).

Jan

[Peter Bottle]

Hi Jan. thanks for your reply.

Around here and in many places, city water Ph varies from 7 to 8.2.
In summer the Ph tends to go high winter more neutral.

I agree with the number of judges, for fairness, however I think that in the US, it will not be a practical proposition unless we can lift the profile of Angelfish.
I was also interested in how you intend to certify your judges. Will it be through written exam or experience - or both?
Hi Tamar!!!

Regarrds
Peter

[watermillman]

I think, that with appending of some humins from peat there into tanks isn´t be some problem with pH, yes? Most of humin concentrates have been buffering capacity on neutral pH.

It´s very big grotesque, that by us are going one championship with angels now, but they aren´t some specialist for these fishes. It´s damage, that this championship make one man, who is in antagonistic keeping against to whole AkvaCZ organisation. I was bid him last spring our standards, but he said me, that it´s very difficult for him and he´ll be keeping his "old standards", where isn´t possible differences scalares from leopoldi and "zebras" from "marbles".... No one compete breeder don´t got some result list from last Summer to now. Nobody from breeders know, where is there his place to now...

If we could make be some serious championships in sometime here, I take for judgement these people, what I know that they know angels very good. What I know from AQUATAB, so there were download standards more than 200 people. What I know some angel breeder specialist, all have it home also and know it, what may there wrote. So not problem here take more aquarists and after one short meeting turn they changed them to serious judges. And I think, that about good body building anatom by angels we have same opinions congruent all in the World, yes?

I´m sorry, that it´ going so long time, but I´m not able finalize translate to English it (I have only several pages now) now, but I think, that it´ll be possible making on to end of Winter (I hope).

Peter, if do you have some interests for make some competition, I´ll be send you all what do you want about it. Every time.

Jan

PS: I think, that it´s best time give standard paints here to list of breeder´s forms now.

[watermillman]

Hi friends,
English version of Proposals and standards for organizing competitions for fish of the genus Pterophyllum is ready. Here is possible read and download it now. We weill be prepare also PDF with color paintings of breeder´s forms for downloading.

http://cesky-cichlid-klub.org/SKALAR...php?f=129&t=83

Jan

[watermillman]

For general use is possible gain also PDF (around 5 Mg) with all color paintworks of breeder´s forms now. If do you need it, send contact on our mail adress ( ceskycichlidklub@centrum.cz ) and we send you free it.

Jan

[Peter Bottle]

Hi Jan will it be available as a book??

Pete

[Bovetek]

I just emailed Jan to get a copy of this.
Sounds like something worth having.

[watermillman]

To Pete:
I was must gave standards out of first issue of book. I had few place there and I was must adhered maximum 336 pages for press. But system of breeder´s forms is one from main chapters there and every paintworks are here as one on one whole page A5.

to Ben:
You got it right, please?

Jan